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Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:51 pm
by rdos
guyfawkes wrote:My definition of a successful hobby OS

1. ***It needs to be self hosting (you can compile/assemble and code the OS, on the OS its self.

2. It needs some form of basic network

3. ***It needs to be able to load and run app

3. It needs both a text and graphical interface

4. ***It's code must be 100% original

5. ***It must have been available to test for at least 5 years.

6. ***It must have been independently chosen as a good example of a hobby OS.

All the one's marked with *** are must have and at least one of the others.
I'd want to add some more:

1. ***There must be an application debugger (if there is also a kernel-debugger and crash debugger, this is even better)

2. ***There must be various abstraction interfaces for common hardware types so that device-drivers can be written as separate modules (VFS, network, USB, graphics, sound, keyboard, mouse).

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:52 pm
by guyfawkes
rdos wrote:
guyfawkes wrote:My definition of a successful hobby OS

1. ***It needs to be self hosting (you can compile/assemble and code the OS, on the OS its self.

2. It needs some form of basic network

3. ***It needs to be able to load and run app

3. It needs both a text and graphical interface

4. ***It's code must be 100% original

5. ***It must have been available to test for at least 5 years.

6. ***It must have been independently chosen as a good example of a hobby OS.

All the one's marked with *** are must have and at least one of the others.
I'd want to add some more:

1. ***There must be an application debugger (if there is also a kernel-debugger and crash debugger, this is even better)

2. ***There must be various abstraction interfaces for common hardware types so that device-drivers can be written as separate modules (VFS, network, USB, graphics, sound, keyboard, mouse).
I can agree with them, all the ASM examples have application debugger and module driver for most if not all the above :).

PS: We could have killed any hope of a sucessful hobby C coded OS, by saying it needs to fit onto a floppy :lol:.

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:54 pm
by neon
Hobby assembly language OSs are only more successful because you want it that way. Its subjective. Enough already. Besides I know of a couple OSs written by members of this board that meet those (required) criteria. ie, Pedegree is one example. There are others. I wont post them, search for yourself. </thread>

Lock thread please, its not getting anywhere. :roll:

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:58 pm
by CrypticalCode0
guyfawkes wrote: PS: We could have killed any hope of a sucessful hobby C coded OS, by saying it needs to fit onto a floppy :lol:.
1MiB or 2MiB?
(yeah yeah i know fat is limited to 1.44MiB)

who besides me still have 'new' floppy's?

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:09 pm
by Brynet-Inc
CrypticalCode0 wrote:1MiB or 2MiB?
(yeah yeah i know fat is limited to 1.44MiB)

who besides me still have 'new' floppy's?
EDIT: Removed 2015: Imageshack replaced all links with spam.

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:56 pm
by DavidCooper
guyfawkes wrote:My definition of a successful hobby OS
Whatever it is, it's right for you, so everyone can make their own valid list. The same applies to the OP. If you want to average out everyone's ideas of what's successful, you need to do some polling, and that'll give you a better idea of what people generally think. But does it really count for anything? I'll just go through your list (which isn't bad, by the way) as it's to hand:-
1. ***It needs to be self hosting (you can compile/assemble and code the OS, on the OS its self.
That can't be essential.
2. It needs some form of basic network
That isn't essential either.
3. ***It needs to be able to load and run app
Unless it's only been designed to illustrate some aspect of OS design.
3. It needs both a text and graphical interface
Unless it's an OS for blind users.
4. ***It's code must be 100% original
That's going to rule out just about any OS you can find, apart from the original one.
5. ***It must have been available to test for at least 5 years.
Why? A brand new one could be far better and become much more widely used within its first year.
6. ***It must have been independently chosen as a good example of a hobby OS.
Chosen by who? One of the small group discussing the issue?

The only way for an OS to qualify as successful is for it to succeed at doing something. However, the original question is about being more successful, so what you actually need to do is look at how many things the OS attempts to do and how many it succeeds in doing, plus how well it does them - the more successful ones will try to do more and succeed in doing more of those things well. There's then another aspect of being successful, and that's actually being used by people: two OSes may be functionally identical, but one is used widely while the other isn't. This is largely down to luck (getting in first, better promotion, or simply having more apps available). So, what you really want to do is create two lists of OSes, one representing the number of users (or better still the total amount of time they've been running, or better still the amount of useful work they've done), and the other list would rank them in order of actual capability combined with how well they work. Even then, the distinction between hobby OS and non-hobby OS is arbitrary, so you've got a problem deciding where to draw the line, and the more successful projects may reach the point where they get too successful and no longer qualify, so why make such a pointless distinction in the first place?

One thing's for sure - if you want your OS to become one of the successful ones, you want to avoid wasting any more of your time discussing how long a piece of string is.

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:33 pm
by guyfawkes
You need the "at least 5 years one" because
Any one who has written a OS from scratch, know that's how long it would take, to do just the basics.
One thing's for sure - if you want your OS to become one of the successful ones, you want to avoid wasting any more of your time discussing how long a piece of string is.
How do you know, that i did not code one of these ?
http://royal.pingdom.com/2008/09/26/10- ... he-future/
or here
http://www.techradar.com/news/software/ ... ems-934484
or here
http://maketecheasier.com/dexos-the-tin ... 2011/03/24
or here
http://www.dex-os.com/dos2x/dos2x.jpg

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:44 pm
by DavidCooper
guyfawkes wrote:You need the "at least 5 years one" because
Any one who has written a OS from scratch, know that's how long it would take, to do just the basics.
What if an experienced team manages to do it in a year?
One thing's for sure - if you want your OS to become one of the successful ones, you want to avoid wasting any more of your time discussing how long a piece of string is.
How do you know, that i did not code one of these ?
http://royal.pingdom.com/2008/09/26/10- ... he-future/
or here
http://www.techradar.com/news/software/ ... ems-934484
or here
http://maketecheasier.com/dexos-the-tin ... 2011/03/24
or here
http://www.dex-os.com/dos2x/dos2x.jpg
Sorry - I didn't make it clear that my final comment wasn't addressed at you - I was using "you" in the sence of "one" (which is considered a posh usage in English and is therefore avoided by most people). I just used your list as it illustrated how difficult it is to generate any rules about what qualifies as "successful", other than just being "successful". Nor was I suggesting that you were wasting your time discussing this, but some people probably are, unless they just enjoy neverending arguments about which method of programming is best.

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:52 pm
by gerryg400
guyfawkes wrote:You need the "at least 5 years one" because
Any one who has written a OS from scratch, know that's how long it would take, to do just the basics.
You made that up. It's rubbish. Anyone who has written an OS (or any software at all) knows that the amount of time taken to complete it depends almost entirely on how the project is planned, scheduled and run.
Are you Dex ?

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:00 pm
by guyfawkes
gerryg400 wrote:Are you Dex ?
Dex was banned :roll:

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:26 pm
by Jezze
guyfawkes: If that is your criteria for success. What is your criteria for hobby?

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:26 pm
by gerryg400
guyfawkes wrote:
gerryg400 wrote:Are you Dex ?
Dex was banned :roll:
I don't know Dex, so which one did you write ?

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:12 pm
by Combuster
Pointless debate of whose opinion is better.

After all, Linux is the hobby project with more users than all our OS projects combined. C wins.

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:41 pm
by guyfawkes
Combuster wrote:Pointless debate of whose opinion is better.

After all, Linux is the hobby project with more users than all our OS projects combined. C wins.
I agree with you Combuster, linux wins as the most successful OS, that started as a hobby.
But thats has killed the hobby C OS.
Every ASM coder needs to fight OS's like linux, that's why we end up coding our own.
But if i was a C programmer, i would love linux and never want to code my own, that's why they have no incentive to code anything new, when theres so much free open source linux code about.

Re: Why are ASM hobby OS more successful than other language

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:46 pm
by guyfawkes
gerryg400 wrote:
guyfawkes wrote:
gerryg400 wrote:Are you Dex ?
Dex was banned :roll:
I don't know Dex, so which one did you write ?
Thats the point, you do not know if i am a good or bad coder.
All i will say is i coded one of the OS's in the links.