OSDev.org

September 11, is starting to become like what Remembrance Day is (The number of World War I casualties, both military and civilian, was over 40 million — 20 million deaths and 21 million wounded). Which is really stupid. Remembrance Day is about the whole world, not just America. Before I read this topic, I (being in Australia) had forgotten about September 11. America should just get over it, and let the people RIP. Like the Barley did after the bombings.

Don't get me wrong, September 11, was a tragedy, and should be remembered by the people it effected, but for the rest of us, get over it.

On a related note, don't you think that September 11, was a government attack, think about it

You can't solely blame the Jews. Both parties are at fault.

Why is it that Jews and Arabs just can't live together in peace? What happened to forgiveness?

Once again you're refering to jews and not Israel,Arabs have problem with Israel
they don't have any problems with jews.
what's your problem?

The fact of the matter is if the US really wanted to waive international law and flat out destroy a nation it could have and would have done it by now. It hasn't

Actually that's what happened in case of Iraq,US went there without the approval of the international community, Russia, France, Germany, China and many many other countries
were against the war. and the most important the Iraqi people were against the war.
results of the war:
2% of the Iraqi people are dead.(~500.000 person)
4.5 millions of the Iraqi people are immigrant.
Iraqi infrastructure is completely destroyed by US troops,
this means no drinking water,
food shortages
No electricity,
No phones,
important bridges and roads are destroyed.
All of the important brains(scientists,doctors,engineers,....)are either dead or displaced.
Iraq has a soil unfit for agriculture,because of the chemical bombs dropped,by US troops.

If all of this don't mean destroy a nation,what would be destroy a nation.

Your logic seems to be that because the US cannot provide some ultimately perfect solution it should not interact or intervene in these areas and is thus criminal?

Don't provide any solution ,just stay away from us.

That's ridiculous, we may not be perfect, but the bulk of our actions have been far from anything remotely criminal.

What happened to Iraq is one of the biggest crimes in the history.
Iraq now lives in the eighteenth century

so yeah I'd hardly consider the US the major criminal here.

America made Gulf war in 1990,war against Afghanistan,again war against Iraq in 2003
so,three wars in less than 15 years.
America has been supporting Israel in the last 50 years,
America supplied Israel with traditional and untraditional (nuclear) ,weapons
and Israel used this weapons and killed hundreds of thousands of Arabs.

so I think America is the most important criminal here.

Like I've said we could do more to build up relations with the Arab League

relations means ,no invasion,no threat and no killing.
Also it means no interfering in the issues of the countries.

abuashraf wrote:Once again you're refering to jews and not Israel,Arabs have problem with Israel
they don't have any problems with jews.
what's your problem?

You keep reiterating that point, but I don't think it's true in that blanket form (all Arabs having problems only with Israel). Some Arabs (who's an "Arab", anyway?) don't have problems with Israel or Jews, some do have problems with Jews. Just give your opponent in this discussion the benefit of doubt, ok?

There have been incidents were the target of terrorist aggression were Jews, not Israelis. And quite some citizens of Israel are muslim Arabs...

2% of the Iraqi people are dead.(~500.000 person)
4.5 millions of the Iraqi people are immigrant.

How many of those are dead or fugitive because of the US, and how many of those because of the forces the US fought against? What are your sources that allow you to claim those precise numbers? I'd be very careful with numbers like that, as statistics tend to blow up in your face. (Oops, bad pun...)

Iraqi infrastructure is completely destroyed by US troops,
this means no drinking water,
food shortages
No electricity,
No phones,
important bridges and roads are destroyed.
All of the important brains(scientists,doctors,engineers,....)are either dead or displaced.
Iraq has a soil unfit for agriculture,because of the chemical bombs dropped,by US troops.

OK, I just have to sound the bullshit alarm here. You make it sound as if Iraq had been bombed into the stone age, which simply isn't true. And even where the damage to the infrastructure had been severe, that's what large parts of the western troops are there for - rebuilding it.

And the thing about "chemical bombs" is absolutely the most ridiculous bullshit I've read so far in any discussion on the subject. Sources, please?

And I wonder if any carpet bombing with "chemical bombs" would poison the soil any worse than the blowing up of the oil wells during the first Gulf War did...

If all of this don't mean destroy a nation,what would be destroy a nation.

Ahem. Remember for a second your history lessons, especially the 1940'ies in Europe, and think again if you want to stick to your claim that what the US did in Iraq would be fit to "destroy a nation". Especially the Germans and Russians on this forum would probably like to hear about that...

Don't provide any solution ,just stay away from us.

"Us" as in "people of Iraq", as in "al-Quaida sympathists", or "Arabs"? (Again, define "Arab" - is a muslim descent of Syrian parents still an Arab if he's an Israel citizen? Does he cease to be an Arab if he coverts to a different religion? Is a christian descent of European parents who lived all his life in Iran an Arab? Does he become one when he converts to Islam?

Be very careful what you are calling "us".

And another problem is, what does "stay away" mean to you? Keep the US troops out so the radicals can seize control of Iraq (which would happen)? Dissolve the state of Israel and ship all the people elsewhere - or at least stand aside and look elsewhere during the genocide?

Would that really mean that "you" would also stay away from "us"? Last time I looked, there've been numerous petitions running in my country for making room in our society for the muslim. Islam-only religion at school, sports lessons with split boy / girl groups so that muslim girls don't get "indecently exposed" (note how no-one seems to have a problem with muslim boys looking at "indecently exposed" girls), stuff like that. Is that "staying away"? No, that's benefitting from our tolerance while not showing any tolerance "at home".

I hope "we" (meaning Europe) get that tolerance of ours balanced against the intolerance of certain outside elements before we forfeit that very tolerance of our society because we handed the keys to those who want to quench that tolerance in favor of their strict laws. (And I'm not sure if I'm more afraid of radical muslims or radical control freaks like our secretary of national security...)

What happened to Iraq is one of the biggest crimes in the history.
Iraq now lives in the eighteenth century

Bullshit alarm again...

America made Gulf war in 1990...

I demonstrated on the streets against the US attacking Iraq, but that war was started when Saddam attempted to annect Kuweit...

America supplied Israel with traditional and untraditional (nuclear) ,weapons
and Israel used this weapons and killed hundreds of thousands of Arabs.

You're simply disqualifying yourself with your blanket statements. Whether Israel has nuclear weapons has never been proven, but sure as hell they never used nuclear weapons against their neighbours. And I'd like to see sources for the "hundreds of thousands" of Arabs allegedly killed by Israel.

...so I think America is the most important criminal here.

The true criminals are the warmongers that use tricky rethorics to stoke the hate and aggression, on both sides, instead of working towards a solution. As long as the shooting and bombing continues, there will be none, as simple as that.

relations means ,no invasion,no threat and no killing.
Also it means no interfering in the issues of the countries.

Yeah, right, you drop your gun first...

Hell, this is not about two gunmen in a Texan town's main road at noon during the wild west. We're talking countries, whole cultures here. But as long as one side of the argument has this hard core behind it that's foaming at the mouth, cries "kill all infidel!" and considers the only good world a world where everyone lives by the laws of the Koran - while most of the rest of that side doesn't condemn them, fight them themselves, and even go "they've got a point, you know" - that whole side is a threat.

I don't want my kids threatened one day because they drew a picture of Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed in school. I don't want my daughter stoned one day because she'd had sex with some guy she wasn't married to. I don't want the soldiers of my country being bombed while they try to protect engineers and policemen trying to make live better for the people in Afghanistan.

And till the day comes where I get the impression that the muslim world actually becomes aware of the problem, and actively opposes those elements in their midst so they might become a viable partner in negotiations (like we do with the right-wing tendencies in our midst, like the "Anti-Islamisation Congress" in Cologne this week effectively busted by civil protest), I perceive it as a threat and will act against it, approprately.

Which does not mean bombing civilian targets or beating up people on the street...

Great job Solar.
I had almost given up on my own thread as I believed it had started spiraling out of control and started a cultural war all in its own.
I too would love to see such sources that claim those radical numbers.

We (the US) retaliated after 9/11, and now we are helping to rebuild the places we attacked, and even places we didn't touch in the first place. We didn't wipe the lands away with chemical weaponry and/or bring/supply nukes into the situation (learned our lesson from that), in fact, we were concerned that nukes would be sent our way. You make it seem like all the US does every day is try and ruin countries, but you don't see our philanthropist acts that really do happen every day (India, Georgia, Sudan, etc..) whether it is civilian-based or straight from the government. Even while we help rebuild and even improve things in the Middle East, our troops and (as Solar said) civilian workers are in constant danger as insurgents could come at any time and take them out, and all for the sake of what? Did they believe that those types of acts would make the US stop and want to become friends and bury the hatchet? Should they really be all that surprised when we send another civilian group back, except this time surrounded by troops and tanks?

@ 01000101:

We (the US) retaliated after 9/11...

...against people who didn't have anything to do with it in the first place, setting off another spiral as if Israel / Palestine hadn't been bad enough already.

Don't get me wrong, I have one or two grudges against the US myself, and think the world at large would be much better off without the "superpower" USA and its meddling in foreign affairs (which is at the root of many of the problems). The USA is simply the other gunslinger saying "you first"...

My position in this is squat in the middle, as I don't think there are any easy answers to the situation.

I was afraid this thread would degenerate into the political, after the nice start that 01000101 gave it.
And I have been avoiding contributing what would certainly be inflammatory opinions. I will continue to try to avoid it as much as I can.

Much of what solar says is very good, I disagree with a little of it.

...against people who didn't have anything to do with it in the first place

To the best I can tell, the people of Iraq were the third largest financial contributors (through their mosques) to Al Quaeda before the attacks. So "didn't have anything to do with it" is laughable.

For the last 50 years, the militant Islamic world has been exporting a proxy war around the planet -- I personally don't mind at all that it is being brought back home to them. Let's see how they like it themselves. It's the best way I can think of to make them quit it.

I have one or two grudges against the US myself

Of course. Every country's foreign policy is specifically designed to benefit its own citizens. There is no country on the planet that does otherwise. This will always cause friction, among the allies and non-allies of each of them. It is unavoidable.

and think the world at large would be much better off without the "superpower" USA

Too bad. We already exist, and will not cease to exist anytime soon. And it was the wars that the crazy Germans started, that turned us into the "superpower" we became. So, if you want to fix blame ....

and its meddling in foreign affairs

See above. And I particularly suspect that you are referring to many events in the specific context of the Cold War -- which the Europeans specifically asked us to fight ON THEIR BEHALF. So complaining after the fact that it was unpleasant and messy is a mind-boggling double-standard. (Very human, though, to ***** and moan after the fact, with 20/20 hindsight.)

(which is at the root of many of the problems).

THERE IS NO ROOT. This is something that people these days seem to have a terribly hard time grasping. History is a neverending dynamic balance of opposing interests of groups of people. It has no beginning. It has no source. It has no "roots". If you think you can trace back some chain to some government or individual and then STOP, and place the blame RIGHT THERE -- you are fooling yourself. Because that government or individual was mostly responding to events that came before, as best they could. To stop and place blame is an indication that you are simply looking for a scapegoat, and you found one that you "like".

abuashraf wrote: True,why do you support such a country,which has been killing our people for more than 60 years. using American weapons.

The Israelis are a bunch of murdering bastards. But at least they are rational murdering bastards. The "arabs" are irrational murdering bastards. They have not proven themselves to be better than the Israelis by any criteria. So, when we are forced to choose between rational and irrational murdering bastards, we choose the rational ones every time. Surprise.

...waive international law ....

There is not, and has never been, any such thing as international law. It is a mass-delusion, based on the misconception that international treaties are laws (instead of the contracts that they really are).

IMO The worst thing of it all is that we are violating our *own* standards.

How many of us are christian? How many of our countries incorporate the religious basics into their laws, and how many countries still send their folks there with the intent to kill people even if the church repeatedly tells them to respect all life?

I blame all the world for being hypocrites. We should visit other nations in the name of peace, not in the name of revenge.

Solar wrote: How many of those are dead or fugitive because of the US, and how many of those because of the forces the US fought against? What are your sources that allow you to claim those precise numbers? I'd be very careful with numbers like that, as statistics tend to blow up in your face. (Oops, bad pun...)

the numbers are actually more take a look
and all of this woudln't happened ,if the war never started,so the war
made by US is major reason for this numbers.

Solar wrote: And the thing about "chemical bombs" is absolutely the most ridiculous bullshit I've read so far in any discussion on the subject. Sources, please?

I made a mistake ,it was nuclear wepons.
take a look and read the three parts please.

Solar wrote: Ahem. Remember for a second your history lessons, especially the 1940'ies in Europe, and think again if you want to stick to your claim that what the US did in Iraq would be fit to "destroy a nation". Especially the Germans and Russians on this forum would probably like to hear about that...

the embargo against Iraq and the war after it is a crime made by US(embargo was forced by US)
take a lookat this numbers

Solar wrote: "Us" as in "people of Iraq", as in "al-Quaida sympathists", or "Arabs"? (Again, define "Arab" - is a muslim descent of Syrian parents still an Arab if he's an Israel citizen? Does he cease to be an Arab if he coverts to a different religion? Is a christian descent of European parents who lived all his life in Iran an Arab? Does he become one when he converts to Islam?

Are you refering that I'm sympathists with Alqaeda?
I knew this is gonna make a problem,'us' means people lives in this area(except Israel)

Solar wrote: And another problem is, what does "stay away" mean to you? Keep the US troops out so the radicals can seize control of Iraq (which would happen)? Dissolve the state of Israel and ship all the people elsewhere - or at least stand aside and look elsewhere during the genocide?

If you may remember,before the war there was a government in Iraq,but when
America went there,and took down that government,US opened the door
to the radicals to do what ever they want.
Also about Israel takethis history lesson.

Solar wrote: Would that really mean that "you" would also stay away from "us"? Last time I looked, there've been numerous petitions running in my country for making room in our society for the muslim. Islam-only religion at school, sports lessons with split boy / girl groups so that muslim girls don't get "indecently exposed" (note how no-one seems to have a problem with muslim boys looking at "indecently exposed" girls), stuff like that. Is that "staying away"? No, that's benefitting from our tolerance while not showing any tolerance "at home".

which tolerance you're talking about,don't you know that racism against Muslims
is very high in Europ,take a look.
Also take a look.

Solar wrote: You're simply disqualifying yourself with your blanket statements. Whether Israel has nuclear weapons has never been proven, but sure as hell they never used nuclear weapons against their neighbours. And I'd like to see sources for the "hundreds of thousands" of Arabs allegedly killed by Israel.

About the nuclear weapons take a look
Also here.

about the killing take a look.

Solar wrote: on both sides, instead of working towards a solution. As long as the shooting and bombing continues, there will be none, as simple as that.

Ahu...on both sides?
well let me remind you..who's troops on the other's lands.

Solar wrote: But as long as one side of the argument has this hard core behind it that's foaming at the mouth, cries "kill all infidel!" and considers the only good world a world where everyone lives by the laws of the Koran

Bullshit...
where did you get that from?

Solar wrote: I don't want my kids threatened one day because they drew a picture of Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed in school. I don't want my daughter stoned one day because she'd had sex with some guy she wasn't married to.

I don't want Iraqi small girls being raped by US troops
I don't want the Afghani small girls beign raped by some German soldiers.
if you want the proof go back to the old posts in this thread.

Solar wrote: I don't want the soldiers of my country being bombed while they try to protect engineers and policemen trying to make live better for the people in Afghanistan.

Bullshit...
I forgot,they are angels,aren't they,
you're hiding behinde your finger here...Germany troops are not there to protect
the people who are building in Afghanistan,they are there because America forced the
Germany government to do so.
Also you should know that nobody is building anything in Afghanistan now,
Afghanistan is worst than it was before the war.
get down to earth.

Solar wrote: And till the day comes where I get the impression that the muslim world actually becomes aware of the problem, and actively opposes those elements in their midst so they might become a viable partner in negotiations (like we do with the right-wing tendencies in our midst, like the "Anti-Islamisation Congress" in Cologne this week effectively busted by civil protest), I perceive it as a threat and will act against it, approprately.

Ahu...
You're killing Muslims,you're stealling their oils,you're protecting and supporting Israel,
so don't you see the problem?
or you only see what you like to see?
once again,get down to earth.

Solar wrote: Which does not mean bombing civilian targets or beating up people on the street...

But it means,land occupations,nuclear bombing,causing the death to 500.000 people,
and all of this happened while you were spreading democracy.

which tolerance you're talking about,don't you know that racism against Muslims
is very high in Europ,

'Muslim' is not a race, AFAIK. Maybe you mean Arabs? Also, your second link may be a bit biased, IMHO.

You apparently aren't familiar with the amount of toleration the west provides. I was just reading an article where in Britain, Muslim law councils were given authority to pass judgment on some issues should the accused wish to have them instead of the British courts. (The same went for a similar Jewish council.)

I don't want Iraqi small girls being raped by US troops
I don't want the Afghani small girls beign raped by some German soldiers.
if you want the proof go back to the old posts in this thread.

Elaborate?

Bullshit...
I forgot,they are angels,aren't they,
you're hiding behinde your finger here...Germany troops are not there to protect
the people who are building in Afghanistan,they are there because America forced the
Germany government to do so.
Also you should know that nobody is building anything in Afghanistan now,
Afghanistan is worst than it was before the war.
get down to earth.

The fact is that America is in the Middle East. There's nothing that's gonna change the past seven years. The only logical thing to do is to work together to rebuild a previously unstable land. Pointing fingers is the only bullshit here.

Ahu...
You're killing Muslims,you're stealling their oils,you're protecting and supporting Israel,
so don't you see the problem?

Your blind hatred for Israel is rather unsound. Blind hatred for anything in always unsound. You hate their leaders and their government, and their love of their lands. (Where they had lived for a very long time.) I'm sure the people who live there, the common folk, are kind, gentle people.

(Also, once again, not all Arabs, or people who live in the Middle East region, are Muslim. Some Arabs are Christian, for instance.)

But it means,land occupations,nuclear bombing,causing the death to 500.000 people,
and all of this happened while you were spreading democracy.

I don't think it's as much 'democracy' as it is freedom. For instance, the idea that women are somewhere above the barnyard cow in some places in this world is unsettling.

Alboin wrote: 'Muslim' is not a race, AFAIK. Maybe you mean Arabs? Also, your second link may be a bit biased, IMHO.
You apparently aren't familiar with the amount of toleration the west provides.
I was just reading an article where in Britain, Muslim law councils were given authority to pass judgment on some issues should the accused wish to have them instead of the British courts. (The same went for a similar Jewish council.)

I mean every person came from the middel east.
Once again which toleration you're talking about.
take a look.

Alboin wrote: Your blind hatred for Israel is rather unsound. Blind hatred for anything in always unsound. You hate their leaders and their government, and their love of their lands. (Where they had lived for a very long time.) I'm sure the people who live there, the common folk, are kind, gentle people.

why don't you take a look at the history
Israel is a criminal country.

Alboin wrote: I don't think it's as much 'democracy' as it is freedom

I don't think freedom means ,destroying a country,bombing nuclear bombs,
and raping women.

@01000101 :
I got the idea, America is actully a saint.
but you might be wrong take a look

abuashraf wrote:I mean every person came from the middel east.
Once again which toleration you're talking about.

So Saudi Arabia or Iran, for instance, are tolerant, of say, a hardcore gay reformed Christian? What kind of response would such a person get in one of those countries? No toleration is perfect, some is just more tolerant than others.

why don't you take a look at the history
Israel is a criminal country.

So Jews invade around 4000BC, 5000 years later, Muslims invade. Jews leave for a bit, return later. Fight over land. Neither group actually owns any of it, by the way.

How about we kick both Muslims and Jews out of Israel, and make it into a Native American Reserve. Wouldn't that be nice? Everyone could have really cheap cigarettes then.

I don't think freedom means ,destroying a country,bombing nuclear bombs,
and raping women.

We didn't use nuclear weapons. Moreover, you're exaggerating the 'rape' taking place. You make it seem as though every foreign soldier is raping and killing women. That's simply not the case. (As stated before...)

I do believe we're digging circles here...How troubling.

Alboin wrote: So Saudi Arabia or Iran, for instance, are tolerant, of say, a hardcore gay reformed Christian? What kind of response would such a person get in one of those countries? No toleration is perfect, some is just more tolerant than others.

so you're arguing about our toleration,you're not more tolerant than us.
didn't you read that article or what?

Alboin wrote: How about we kick both Muslims and Jews out of Israel, and make it into a Native American Reserve. Wouldn't that be nice? Everyone could have really cheap cigarettes then.

how about ,stay away from palestine,and don't supply Israel with nuclear weapon
Also don't supply Israel with cluster bombs,
take a look

Alboin wrote: We didn't use nuclear weapons

Yes,you did...
once again.

this is for solar

Solar wrote: but sure as hell they never used nuclear weapons against their neighbours

why don't you take a look

abu ashraf

Your links seem like they have no credibility, reliability, or sanity at all.
Lets go throw a few of your links, shall we?
http://www.democracynow.org/2006/7/25/h ... ng_cluster - Wouldn't connect on my computer.
http://www.willthomasonline.net/willtho ... Bombs.html - This is my personal favorite. It seems to be reporting what some random person says as true. Pretty funny, though.
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07 ... a13798.htm - Pretty light on information. It just says that Israel is using cluster bombs on people, no background into the village they bombed or what Israel has against it.
http://www.palestinehistory.com/history/brief/brief.htm - VERY biased

Please use better links next time, abu ashraf.

@abuashraf: Those are not nuclear weapons, there is no nuclear reaction when they are detonated. They are in fact classified under conventional explosives. A nuclear weapon is not something you can just detonate and hide from the international community, it is simply too big and leaves too much radiation. The only thing in those bombs is DU and conventional explosives, which is lightly radioactive, it's been proven that heavy metals are more toxic than it by a large margin. There might be long term effects from prolonged exposure, but most of the studies conducted haven't shown any significant impact. Likewise a cluster bomb is not a nuclear weapon, it's also a conventional explosive. Once again if you'd read some of the links you've posted you'd see that Israel if it has nukes, made them through it's own production facility.

Likewise I'd say the US is a very diverse and tolerant area in general, it was afterall a nation built on immigration. Personally I live near the nation's capital and it's a very diverse area with a substantial Muslim/Arab population. I have yet to see or hear of anyone being unfairly treated outside of perhaps biased random searches in airports in recent years.

@ abushraf:

I doubt that any amount of reasoning I could do would change your mind. However, thank you for so elaborately proving my points.

"It's the others who are evil, we are absolutely justified", trying to prove your POV is correct without regard for the opposite side. That's exactly what makes the issue so complicated.

PS: I don't think DU ammunition is a good thing either, but it's not a chemical, let alone a nuclear weapon. Claiming stuff like that only reduces your credibility.