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CWood wrote:...but ultimately the situation really boils down to: social life, education, projects, work; pick two.

I disagree.

I once head it put into words quite beautifully:

Take a bucket. That is the total time you have in your life.

Fill the bucket with stones. That is the time you spend at work (or at school).

Then take pebbles, and put them into the bucket. You will find that they fill the spaces between the stones. That is the time you spend with your friends and family.

Then take sand, and put it into the bucket. You will find that it takes up the remaining space. That is the time you spend for yourself, with spare time projects or pastimes.

Then pour everything out, and try it the other way around, starting with the sand, then the pebbles, then the stones. You will find that the very same amount of things that previously co-existed in the bucket won't fit anymore.

CWood wrote:ultimately the situation really boils down to: social life, education, projects, work; pick two.

You can pick education and social life and then still have time for projects instead of TV-time or in between classes. Even during class hours if you have an easy time getting grades anyway. Thats the beauty of school, so much dead time, project hours, self-study and such that you don't even think about without trying a real job to see the difference.

You'll just have to mix in some more school work and social life where it matters the most - in your case, when at home as to calm down you parents.

Also, you said you where 16, right? Even on the back-burner, or only 10% allocated time, your personal projects will have like 2-5 years or more depending on education so there is plenty of time and man hours to squeeze out for that.

Well, I can speak as an university dropout (having formally only a high-school education).

Finding a job while you do not have a degree could be a real challenge. Yes, I did got a job in eventually. But while my knowledge from self-teaching, was clearly superior to anyone who've got a Master's degree, I still was treated as a second-class citizen (despite that I was the one teaching them how write proper SQL queries or what OOP is all about).

It took me 7 years to get a job where I'm actually admitted for my knowledge and not for my degree. While I'm currently satisfied with my life, I'm still wondering about all those missed opportunities. It still feels like an unfinished business to which I need to attend to someday.

If you're as brilliant as you think you are, it should not be a problem to get A+ in every subject you claim you know already. But do not be overconfident. I did get A+ in Physics, Chemistry and Computer Science, while I did nothing to learn the subject (I knew everything they were to teach already). Unfortunately it did not work out so nice in university.

Velko, your experience with college and university is similar to my own. I found college so easy but when it came to uni I found myself unable to finish due to various issues the most important of these being crippling debt. I do not consider it unfinished business however although I have had the same years of having to build up equivalent experience. maybe right now this is not so bad though, as so many now have university education that you have to have experience instead of degrees simply are not giving people a true impression of what working life is all about. I do realise that what I learned in uni was important but for me it was more about how I learned to fend for myself and live away from home for the first time rather than how to attend lectures and how to learn on my own steam. having finished after two of the three years of the course I have some kind of paper qualification out of it but I do not list this on my cv. maybe I should...

Solar is probably right. He always is. But I'm in a situation similar to you, and I've chosen to leave studies and go it on my own. I'm still going to study, but I'm going to study for things like professional certifications instead of a computer science degree. I've talked to a few people in the industry and they have told me many of the best programmers they know have no formal qualifications. Sure, on one hand you might come across as quitting by giving up on formal studies, but on the other you can style it as being driven in the rogue spirit way Bill Gates was driven to give up on his degree. Don't get me wrong, a computer science or software engineering degree would be nice, but do I think it's worth sacrificing another 3 years for? Nah. I'll get into some open source projects, get a couple of MS certifications, do some freelance web development, study BUSINESS, read Joel Spolsky etc. If I fail as a developer it will be because I wasn't good enough, not because I don't have a computer science degree.

A few great programmer I know has no certificates whatsoever, but they do not get high paid with respect to their ability.
In contrast, I also worked with a few dumb programmer, with lots of certificate and years of working experience, and they got paid well.

Anyway, I advice to stay in education.

University dropout. Never had a problem finding work. Have actually never not got a job I applied for (on my third right now). Im not smarter than anyone else but Ive been programming since I was 11. I usually ask people to name any football player that have only played for 4 years and compete in the big league? The answer is always no, such a person probably does not exist.

Please Pardon my ignorance.
I'm also sorry if I have caused offense to some Users on the fourm - I try to be the best person I can.
For this I also Apologies to berkus , about me arguing in the Humbell thread - I was a blubbering idiot - I had NO CLUE about Operating Systems.

Anyway, I hope I'm not perceived as unwanted here.

I Too am in a similar position. I'm 17 and in 6-form. My Problem isn't the speed of Lessons - I know I'm an idiot , but rather, I'm doing the wrong lesson's. Here in the UK (Dunno where you guys are from), the Education System is absolutely B*$£$&. ICT is about doing 40-100 Different Searches in a search Engine and writing an essay of what you found out. Would I rather Do that, or Build an OS that could potentially change someone's life? Hmm...

I didn't make it into Math A-Level and thus my future programming Career is in the bin. I had a B, but my overall grade was a C - only because then I was to busy concentrating on Humbell to care for my Schooling - I Thought I could Be The Next Steve Jobs.

That's My Problem - I spend 14/18 hours a day on reading about the XNU and IOKIT and other stuff when I should be creating spreadsheets on the effectiveness of an OR operator, and drawing sculptures in my art book.

It's one thing to say "Yes Carry On At School" - but it's another to not get enticed back.

This thread has given me some home truths , but hasn't helped me one bit....

So basically I can Never get my Dream Career if I go to school, and I can Never Get my Dream Career With Humbell... Great, I'm screwed.

And Again, I want to apologies if you feel I'm 'Harsh' - I'm not a people person, But I suppose that really ain't an excuse.

naf456, why is your programming career in the bin because you didn't do a-level maths? I didn't do maths and I don't like maths, however I did a-level computing which was about 50% actual programming and the rest software development theory. its probably changed these days to appeal to the neddies but I now work in programming and I've never done any maths beyond the basic gcse level... well unless you include the stuff like converting binary, hex and ieee floats that we had to do in computing...

Most programming doesn't involve anything greater than highe school level math. If you want to work for NASA or for an algo-trading firm, sure go retake your math course.

Being someone who loves math, I would normally go off on some rant about how awesome math is, but I have to admit that math skills and programming skills are generally unrelated in people I've seen.

That said, I think most people's impression of math is based on the sort of math you do if you're not a math major, i.e. anything up to vector calculus and maybe differential equations. I find pretty much all of that stuff boring, mostly because it is, and is only really applicable to areas where continuous math is used, i.e. not CS, unless you're doing numerical analysis, in which case, you are already insane. Discrete math (e.g. graph theory, number theory, various algebras) on the other hand is quite applicable to CS, and is totally different than calculus. I find that proof writing is very mentally similar to debugging: you have to think about things in the general case while keeping in mind many specific tricks and technicalities that could be used to solve your problem, and you're always trying to find the pathological cases in things. I will not argue that all good programmers know math well (as this is obviously false,) but I have never met a good mathematician who was unable to grasp programming (i.e. the converse.)

NickJohnson wrote:...have never met a good mathematician who was unable to grasp programming (i.e. the converse.)

O rlly now?

huehuehue \o/

Don't get me wrong, I have a severe math envy of people who have advanced skills in it. The sort of programmers who write those physics engines, algo-trading programs, 3d graphics programming, compilers etc - I look up to them as Gods. I look up to them not only because of their analytical skills but also because of their pay checks. But lets face it, the majority of programmers work doing grunt work - interacting with simple API's that any average programmer could understand. Where I am, the most in demand skills are java script, css and html 5. Hardly rocket science. I'd estimate you are much more likely to get a job here (Sydney Australia ) with skills in java script than you are with operating system design or writing compilers.

True that you can work with computers without knowing that much math but I would argue you would be very limited in what sort of task you could undertake.

To be a great programmer you need much more than just math. First you need to have genuine interest, reading everything you can get your hands on, programming even when you are not working just for fun. Second you need experience so you intuitively can see how to solve a problem in practice and all the steps leading up to it. Knowing what works and what doesn't is essential and you can only get that by trial and error (no matter how many books you've read). Then you need the theory. Understanding how a computer works in the darkest depths, how the computer and operating system handles the things you throw at it all the way up to some friendly application written in some higher level language. You need math so you can tell why bubble sort is slower than quicksort and also why the theoretical speed seldom works in practice. You need to know your tools so you can work in a effective manner and you need practically worked with at least 10 different programming languages... and much much more I didn't mention.

Any one of these skills missing and you are probably not a great programmer. As a field of knowledge, computing is really mind boggling. I wonder if mathematicians ever study such a wide variety of subjects and in such depth? Perhaps a great mathematician are able to grasp a programming language fairly well but they still have only touched the surface. That is why I think a mathematician does not have it easier to grasp the field of computing compared to the other way around.

Jezze wrote:True that you can work with computers without knowing that much math but I would argue you would be very limited in what sort of task you could undertake.

I suck at maths (above high-school level). If it's more than simple arithmetics, I'd probably have to look it up. Didn't bother me (or my employer) the last 12 years / 3 jobs.

First you need to have genuine interest, reading everything you can get your hands on, programming even when you are not working just for fun.

To a limit. You need to recharge your batteries, and you better be socially functional. But yes, spare-time interest is definitely a bonus.

You need math so you can tell why bubble sort is slower than quicksort and also why the theoretical speed seldom works in practice.

Actually you don't even need to know the "why". I've never implemented a bubble sort in my life, and would be hard-pressed to implement a quicksort without outside reference. Why? Because it's in the damn standard library, that's why.

...you need practically worked with at least 10 different programming languages...

Not really. 5 or 6 should really suffice, if they're properly spread across the spectrum. One or two scripting languages, Java/C#, C/C++, and you have a solid base. Pick up the rest as you go along.

Any one of these skills missing and you are probably not a great programmer.

Don't be mistaken, you can have a good time simply being an above-average programmer.

Perhaps a great mathematician are able to grasp a programming language fairly well but they still have only touched the surface. That is why I think a mathematician does not have it easier to grasp the field of computing compared to the other way around.

Many mathematicians get intimate contact with programming as a matter of their studies. Several of the best programmers I know are actually math masters, not CS.