Anarchy

[turdus]

And what has giving something to eat to do with authority? Or power over others?

Are you serious? If the child doesn't get eat, will die. If someone's life is in your hands, that's power. And according to authority, you're telling me, you have never ever heard a child asking his/her parents: "can I..."?

I don't think that an half year old child have any deep thoughts about what are the reasons why he gets something to eat or not or why something is caring about him.

That's why I wrote "subconscious memory".

But if you don't like this example (or babies), here's another for bigger ones: "time for bed", "clean up your room" or "enough TV". No child could understand it by reasoning. I'm sure there was a time when your parents told you what to do, and you had to do it despite of you really didn't want to.
You like it or not, all of us do remember that someday somebody had power over us. I have conscious memory of that, you probably only subconscious.

[Solar]

It is folly to think that mankind could ever evolve into something more elated than the somewhat clever animals that we are.

On this quote, i do not agree. As time has progressed mankind has learned from their mistakes.

Indeed we disagree on this point.

I very much doubt there could be another spanish inquisition...

Death sentences on people who fall from the muslim faith? Female genital mutilation "out of tradition"?

...or slavery of an entire race of people, or anything so drastic.

Forced child labor? Forced prostitution? Child soldiers? Millions of people living as actual slaves this very day?

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

In general mankind is an empathic species and something within the common man prevents us from doing despeciable acts...

In general. That has been the case even in "the dark ages". It's just the exceptions that can make live into a living hell. Unfortunately, being likely to commit despiciable acts, if not getting you into prison, quite frequently gets you into a position of power...

I think that bettering ourselves can only be done with the checks and balances of an organised non-anarcistic society, e.g. a police force to punish those who step outside of societal norms, and armed forces to defend against groups of people who would trample on our way of life.

I.e., what we have been doing for the last couple thousand years or so already?

--------

"time for bed", "clean up your room" or "enough TV". No child could understand it by reasoning.

They actually can. They actually do. It's just that their rational self quite frequently isn't capable of overruling their emotional self. It's not so seldom an adult cannot ("let's have another piece of cake", "oh I'll watch this TV program some more", "just another round of this game before I go to bed").

I'm sure there was a time when your parents told you what to do, and you had to do it despite of you really didn't want to.

Nevertheless, when I get a chance, I explain the reasoning to my kids, and let them explain their feelings to me. If they actually can get a grip on their emotional self, it makes them grow up a bit; if they cannot, it sometimes avoid the "shouting & crying" part. Both good things to have.

[turdus]

I very much doubt there could be another spanish inquisition, or slavery of an entire race of people

I hate to be a messenger of bad news, but today most people live in debt-slavery. Save some lucky states, all paying almost all of their GDP to lenders (including USA, 99,6% of GDP in 2011 and constantly growing in the last 10 years), and there are more and more states that had passed point of no return, should pay more than their GDP (which is obviously impossible, therefore no escape from slavery).

That's true today's slavery is not a "work by lashing" slavery like in ancient times, but a more sophisticated "work for small money to pay your unpayable debt" one, yet it's still a slavery. And it affects the whole globe.

Nevertheless, when I get a chance, I explain the reasoning to my kids, and let them explain their feelings to me.

But of course. The point is, you won't have the chance all the time (especially when it's question of life and death). For example my boy wanted to plug a nail in the outlet when he was about two, that would be pointless to explain him electricity, high voltage and why it's deadly at that age.
Also it's a part of growing up for kids to say "no" to parents to push the limits and get the final limits known.

[Solar]

I hate to be a messenger of bad news, but today most people live in debt-slavery.

Your definition of "debt-slavery" is somewhat insulting to the ~18 million people living in actual bonded labor / debt bondage...

That's true today's slavery is not a "work by lashing" slavery like in ancient times...

...except for the additional >7 million people living in forced labor.

To quote Wikipedia: "There are more slaves today than at any point in history". It's merely that they are off in some countries which we first-worlders can so conveniently ignore.

[turdus]

Your definition of "debt-slavery" is somewhat insulting to the ~18 million people living in actual bonded labor / debt bondage...

I don't know why it would be insulting, and why you name ~18 million people. There're billions of people unable to pay their debt. Just alone in my country several million, and mine is a small one. If I calculate only the debt of people (not the state's) sum divided by working population, that's 1 550 000 EUR per person. No one earns that much (average incoming per month 800 EUR), so it's just a matter of time when will the number of people unable to pay their debt grow (and again, state's debt not included).

That's true today's slavery is not a "work by lashing" slavery like in ancient times...

...except for the additional >7 million people living in forced labor.

To quote Wikipedia: "There are more slaves today than at any point in history". It's merely that they are off in some countries which we first-worlders can so conveniently ignore.

Beg your pardon. And their's.

[Solar]

Your definition of "debt-slavery" is somewhat insulting to the ~18 million people living in actual bonded labor / debt bondage...

I don't know why it would be insulting, and why you name ~18 million people. There're billions of people unable to pay their debt.

In many countries, luckily including my home country, being unable to pay your debt is uncomfortable, but by no means slavery. My neighbour was unable to pay his debt, and filed for private insolvency. But he is still protected by law, meaning that he and his family are still living in a house, are entitled to medical service, kids are still going to school and everything. He's working full-time as a truck driver, the full 42 hours / week allowed by law, and a good portion of his earnings are collected by his creditors, but he and his family are still living a life.

The number of ~18 million people I was referring to aren't protected by anyone. No welfare, no medical service, no limitations on working hours, no acceptable working conditions.

[turdus]

The number of ~18 million people I was referring to aren't protected by anyone. No welfare, no medical service, no limitations on working hours, no acceptable working conditions.

I see. Still I think you underestimate it, it's a very optimistic number. Foxconn alone employs more than 1 million people in wrong conditions and make them work more than 8 hours a day.

[invalid]

I hate to be a messenger of bad news, but today most people live in debt-slavery.

Your definition of "debt-slavery" is somewhat insulting to the ~18 million people living in actual bonded labor / debt bondage...

Present monetary systems across the globe are severely deviated. Money is regulated arbitrarily by politicians... And what do we see after almost a century of this? Almost every single person, family, corporation, city, state - everyone is in deep debt!
I just count it as taxation (e.g. inflation is just a form of taxation).

It must be made clear what is the source of power. When talking about 'authorities', do not mean people which you follow because you want to, or because you don't want your wife to get mad at you etc. "Authority" is an entity authorized (legitimized) to use raw physical violence (in order to enforce some desired state). When lacking such authorities, it's easier for some entity to claim that it's becoming an authority, and enforce this claim - IMHO that's why pure anarchy is unsustainable.

[MasterLee]

Nevertheless, when I get a chance, I explain the reasoning to my kids, and let them explain their feelings to me.

But of course. The point is, you won't have the chance all the time (especially when it's question of life and death). For example my boy wanted to plug a nail in the outlet when he was about two, that would be pointless to explain him electricity, high voltage and why it's deadly at that age.
Also it's a part of growing up for kids to say "no" to parents to push the limits and get the final limits known.

At the first point you can explain that it will be deadly or extremely harmful. Simply explain what could happen if he does that. Don't go too much into detail. There is no need that everyone knew the exact details that happen when somebody dies by electricity or he must lean biology, chemistry, anatomics, quantum mechanics and many other thinks too.

[turdus]

At the first point you can explain that it will be deadly or extremely harmful.

You're wrong. There's no way to explain to a child who just started speaking such complex thinks like "deadly". You're very very lucky if you can explain simple things such as "don't throw glass away" (which has a direct conclusion that he/she sees and can recall therefore simple). Although I agree with Solar that you must try to explain everything, but there are situations when you simply can't. You'll learn that when you'll have your own kids.

But you missing the point. Did it happened or not, that you've been forced to go to bed despite you wanted to watch more TV late at night? (This is a poetic question, answer to yourself, not here). I'm pretty sure it happened at least once, so you have (at least subconscious) memory of power over people.

[Cognition]

I very much doubt there could be another spanish inquisition, or slavery of an entire race of people

I hate to be a messenger of bad news, but today most people live in debt-slavery. Save some lucky states, all paying almost all of their GDP to lenders (including USA, 99,6% of GDP in 2011 and constantly growing in the last 10 years), and there are more and more states that had passed point of no return, should pay more than their GDP (which is obviously impossible, therefore no escape from slavery).

That's true today's slavery is not a "work by lashing" slavery like in ancient times, but a more sophisticated "work for small money to pay your unpayable debt" one, yet it's still a slavery. And it affects the whole globe.

Your definition of 'debt slavery' is pretty inaccurate. First of all GDP is more closely measure to income than to wealth, just about anyone who buys a house is going to take on an amount of debt in excess of their yearly salary. Public debt matters mostly because the government has to pay it, and if debt servicing costs become too high it will drag on the economy as a whole or flat out become unpayable without monetizing some of that debt (some countries like Greece don't even have that option). The US does not pay it's entire GDP in debt, debt servicing costs for the Federal government, while substantial, was $186 billion dollars last year. Less than 1/10th of the government's tax receipts. Most western countries are more at risk of having their budgets busted by rising entitlement and healthcare costs that will have to be paid as the baby boomer generation retires, not from debt servicing costs.

Secondly taking on debt is almost always a voluntary decision. It's a contract you enter into with a lender, at least in the western world you can't be held liable for your parent's debts for example. Debt trouble is something people tend to bring on themselves by poor financial planning or bad budgeting. Even at the state level, if you live in a democracy then you're voting for the people taking on debt and making the budget. That's been the primary problem in the US for example people want more services and lower taxes, and you can't have it both ways. There are some exceptions to this that have happened during the recent global financial crisis. Many countries for example, decided to guarantee the bad loans private banks made, which should have never happened. But in most cases, it was just too much borrowing and spending by people who frankly should have known better.

I see. Still I think you underestimate it, it's a very optimistic number. Foxconn alone employs more than 1 million people in wrong conditions and make them work more than 8 hours a day.

Now this is a bit of a different issue. One thing people keep forgetting to take into account when looking at China is that it is in the stage of it's economic development most of the western world went through in the last 19th century. If you looked at the US in it's post reconstruction years or areas of Europe you'd have seen similar things. Trade unions and the whole concept of legislating a set of worker's rights came about precisely because of those bad conditions. Now China is basically at that point, though it has to benefit of historical precedent to look at. Still given the state of development it's economy is in, it is not horribly surprising that there is minimal regard for worker's right and the environment. Over time this will change as the economy develops and stabilizes, probably not too soon though as there are still hundreds of millions of rural peasants who continue migrating east in search of work and better lives in China's larger cities.