Newcomer Shield

[brine32]

I am of the position that catering to these needs and building an extensive library of information on them would likely bring a lot of non-osdev related traffic to the site and change the focus as a whole, but I have no problem with a list of links to said sites and providing a link to it if someone inquires.

No one is talking about "catering" to anyone's needs. This discussion is about respect and showing it to everyone not just those people you like or respect for whatever reasons you may have.

Regarding RTFM in general and it's rudeness. I don't consider this statement overly rude

It is, regardless if you think so or not. And, it has nothing to do with the one letter or the tone. Sure, those are deciding factors, but what makes it most rude is that it is a lazy answer, it is a careless answer, and it shows the other person that you don't really give a crap about them. It's a terrible thing to say.

If someone doesn't take the time to do give a topic a lengthy read I don't feel that they necessarily deserve someone giving them a lengthy response(I know some people might disagree here). If someone refuses to I honestly don't believe they're entitled to any help, though there are some exceptions when it comes to language barriers. In general though I view it as a bit rude to burden other people with essentially doing your homework for you, as long someone isn't aggressive, demanding, or demeaning when inquiring I basically have no problem simply providing a link or ignoring them. By the same token I don't necessarily think a dumb question deserves to be mocked and ridiculed openly.

This whole thing is too back and forth. Why not pick a side and stick with it. You are like, "I think this is bad, but it might be OK if this or that happens", "I think RTFM isn't rude, but people who ask dumb questions shouldn't be mocked... OPENLY" I suppose this should be done privately, as in you would secretly humiliate them via a Private Message or E-mail of some sort. Perhaps it would be a good idea to prevent people like you from answering questions altogether. At least until you decide on a definite approach.

I think there's a bit too much fanfare over Combuster's response in the thread that was linked as well. It was a bit overbearing, but essentially all he was doing was asking the poster a lot of questions they should have asked themselves before posting. More then anything the length of it was the problem. If Combuster had made two posts with that format and then said "Look I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but these are really questions you should be asking yourself before posting" I doubt it would have been viewed in such a poor light. If he had clarified what he was doing a bit the poster would have learned something that isn't in many manuals and much harder to convey: a good thought process for troubleshooting. On a certain level I think that will do someone a lot more good then a simple link to relevant information (give a man a fish/teach a man to fish).

Again, with this teach a man to fish nonsense. Stop using this term until you understand the true meaning of it. If you think Combuster was at all trying to "teach a man to fish" then you have a lot to learn about fishing.

I don't know if that was Combuster's intention or not, but based on actual content about the only mean thing was dangling the proverbial carrot for too long. The OP might have felt a bit foolish or confused at the end of it, but he did actually learn something in the process. Again, I don't think that it's necessarily the best post but there were definitely some underrated constructive elements to it all.

Get off the fence!

On another note, I wouldn't mind seeing a footnote put under the resources section on the wiki's main page (regardless of what layout) that actually says "manuals, specifications, design documents, etc.". I do feel there's some ambiguity with the term resources alone and it's easy enough to clarify.

Wrong forum. Please post this in the proper place.

Coming in and demanding that this place with established members change on the whim of newcomers is silly. You don't join an organization or go into a business expecting to turn it on its head just because you believe it should work differently. You adapt to the culture, gain respect, and then respectfully propose ideas. What you're doing now is, at best, rude and slapping a lot of people in the face.

Welcome to the new world order.

[piranha]

Again, with this teach a man to fish nonsense. Stop using this term until you understand the true meaning of it. If you think Combuster was at all trying to "teach a man to fish" then you have a lot to learn about fishing.

You do realize that it's not really about fishing, right? You're suggesting that instead of helping people fend for themselves so that when they have a real question they can ask it here, you want all their questions to be answered straight out so they have to post a simple question every time they run into trouble? Thats absurd. The forums would die out of boredom. I agree the Combuster should have clarified it, but honestly...the teach a man to fish metaphor works here, quite well in fact.

And you can dislike the way I share my opinions, but I'm still gonna share them. You say I gave no reasons?

The thing is, if there is no way to appeal it, then we would be treating experienced programmers and noobs the same way, which is not right. They should be treated differently.

I don't like the way you are submitting your opinion. You don't attach with it any reason for why you think this way. Would you care to explain why you feel that it is unfair?

I figured that the reasons why that was unfair to be simple enough not to need to spell it out: The experienced programmers are already able to contribute to the advanced forums! They have already done the work required to use the advanced forums! The noobs have not! They do not know enough to contribute. The need to learn. The forums are about community and contributing to people on your own level and getting help from people who are better.

The question to you: would osdev.org die out without these kinds of threads (and the corresponding heated debates)?

No, it would not, because if noob threads were to disappear, the forums would yes, be less lively, but be more interesting at the same time.

Basically...I see no reason to spoon feed the people who do not do the legwork and are unwilling to learn.

The above statement has been said many times before by many people.

Edit: Great, I didn't say it. I don't care. No one cares. No one ever cares. We done with that now?

-JL

[brine32]

The forums are about community

No, actually they are about OS Development.

and contributing to people on your own level

What a pointless reason to exist.

and getting help from people who are better.

Now if you could only believe that last part, you and I would have nothing more to talk about.

No, it would not, because if noob threads were to disappear, the forums would yes, be less lively, but be more interesting at the same time.

You realize that we weren't talking about "noob" threads, right? We are talking about threads like this one and the debates that follow. Which brings me to my next point:

I see no reason to spoon feed the people who do not do the legwork and are unwilling to learn.

Your sword swings both ways. Mind your head.

[Solar]

I've watched this a couple of days now.

Doesn't anyone realize what's happening here?

Perhaps it would be a good idea to prevent people like you from answering questions altogether.

Stop using this term until you understand the true meaning of it.

Get off the fence!

Wrong forum. Please post this in the proper place.

Welcome to the new world order.

The forums are about community

No, actually they are about OS Development.

What a pointless reason to exist.

----

User: brine32

First Post Ever: 2010-04-26, 20:34

Number of Posts: 18

Number of Posts not in this thread: One.

Number of Posts on the subject of programming, OS-related or not: Zero.

(Status: Beginner)

Subject of this thread before User entered: Constructive discussion on how to serve basic information to newcomers, so to avoid repetitive beginner's questions which have lead to less than friendly discussions in the past.

Subject of this thread since User entered: How we are loathsome people for not doing what brine32 thinks is right, how brine32 wants selected members of this community to "get out", how he intends to "revolutionize" this community to which he "contributed" for a whole week now, and how we could better answer all the beginner's questions through Q&A (for which, might I repeat, there's StackOverflow being a much better ressource).

Moderator request: Closing of thread, temporary ban of user brine32 for unconstructive and insulting behaviour. (His first post should have been more than enough.)

To quote said user:

There is no harm in forcing anyone with knowledge to contribute to the beginners area in order to remove themselves of a beginners status, thus allowing them to post in the advanced forums.

Clarification: I did not leave because I felt insulted by brine32 butr because I saw where this was heading, and was unwilling to stick out my head for this community with so little backing. I do not request his banning out of vindictiveness. But here's a discussion about the future of this community, which was about to achieve actual results, which has completely been taken over by a newcomer and troll - if a lingistically and sociologically skilled troll.

He successfully managed to viciously flame two old-time members in his first post, both of which had the self-control not to retaliate in the same style (so much for Combuster and me being the aggressors here). Now apparently everyone is afraid to tell him where he could stick his attitude because you could be the next target for his attacks.

I could tell you who perfected these tactics of taking over a community, but that'd be violating Godwin's law. Sociologists would love this thread. If this community of above-average intelligent people is unable to defend itself against such tactics, it's a sorry day indeed.